You earn 30 bonus points on your first activity on every new conference. USA. Well, those are the days that I feel like I might actually be qualified for this job as opposed to the other days where you get blindsided by something and you're like, "Man, what? But you said this one phrase. Or, more bluntly, how do you still get your job done when you're located in a different part of the organization? But again, it's the same idea that you can do everything you need to do from front end all the way through. Michael has helped businesses and technology leaders in their transformation journeys over his long career and was even one of the inspirations behind The Unicorn Project’s protagonist, Maxine. Sold Out! And we were fascinated by the perspectives that she shared with us. I think that sometimes for reasons that you've stated, let's put on kind of like malicious dynamics that can exist in some senior leaders. And so he writes about what that cost might look like. Because I was someone in operations who had come from development, I was able to go in when all of our threads were locked up and pull stack traces and just find out why it was locking up. Thank you, have a nice day." So this gets to my question that, I've been leading up towards. I'm pretty active there as M-T-N-Y-G-A- -R-D. And you can use [email protected] to reach me by email. We overload our terms a lot in this industry. Once you have done that, then you're faced with the question of, "Okay, now we've got autonomy, but we're faced with an existential challenge in the marketplace." Actually, we want a lot of speed boats, but we want them all going in the same direction because otherwise they'll crash into each other and sink. Now, in terms of the org chart, this is where I think there's something really profound in what Conway said, which is that it is the communication structure of the org that creates that software architecture. The name Michael Nygaard has over 27 birth records, 6 death records, 10 criminal/court records, 84 address records, 17 phone records and more. Some of these techniques may appear to contradict past notions of sound architecture. I don't know if it's going to take us off topic or in a different direction. And the product goals. You've got some backend work, whatever your billing system is, has to be aware of this. In the latest episode of The Idealcast, Gene Kim is joined by Michael Nygard, a senior vice president at Sabre and author of the bestselling Release It! 6. Each one had their own file system. And by the way, when I was writing the unicorn project, the protagonist Maxine was in many ways modeled after you. Design sessions will be paper and whiteboard work in small groups. I think '91, '92, somewhere around there. So there are different mechanisms to achieve it, but trust is also pretty essential. In discussions about change in a complex system I commonly hear people object, “We can’t do that because X.” (That statement often follows a passive-aggressive prelude such as “That’s all well and good” or “being tactical for a moment.” And we can't always wait on the round trip time, right? So there's, that. But also the systems of culture and business and finance and physics that really define the world around us. And so therefore, we begin to fear making changes. It's easier to build things when you have that characteristic. So one approach is you have a group of people who've all been through the fire together. Leadership and the relationship between the business’ architecture and the technology architecture of the business. Okay, so with that explanation of what they did and why they did it? Great. I love this. So if you talk to the people working on the services, if your service is not getting traffic, if it's not getting customers, it's going to get deleted and you get reassigned. Let me frame this first with my own prejudices. Someone who has walked in the shoes of a developer of an operation person and an architect. Architecture plans in enterprises tend to resemble late-night infomercials. So organizing logic is one of the first pieces that I really look for. And so at the risk of seeming pedantic, you have to develop a personal style that lets you do this where they understand you're trying to help, not condescend. So that would be an example of a good reorganization. It is the molasses that slows our every move. Actually, it is. Right. I'm not sure if I'm splitting hairs here, but that seems like a very profound observation. So kludges cluster. You go, "So if we have a problem with our database right now, we're going to lose the last five minutes of order data, and we might not be able to recover the last hours worth of orders." He talked about boldness and initiative, specifically about cultivating the ability to take calculated risks. You totally did. And I thought that most of our break fix work was going to be around dead CPU or burnt out fans or failing hard drives. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. So to me, architecture is the organizing logic of the components and the materials used to construct them. And as reported by Steve Yegge, the big mandate went something along these lines, "1. Specifically, he talked to MCDP1, that's Marine Corps Doctrinal Publication 1. Inability to change higher cost of maintaining the old stuff, that sort of thing. So I often feel like too much of a generalist to really put myself in any one category. 45 Mins. Navy Seals reported to the secretary of the Navy. And part of that is that, if all these components are being built in parallel, it sure helps to be able to test them and integrate them at places, not just at the end. One of them delivered under budget is performing well, has three for developers because they're using a language like Closure and they have superpowers, naturally. So you have a bunch of teams that are autonomous, they can achieve their own goals, their own independent backlogs with their own kind of independent success metrics around, what the specific goals for those that feature area are? We wrote 300 pages in the BRD." So, that aspect of predictability is one. So it doesn't take very many incidents before those review processes and the scrutiny ramp back up, and the fewer fault isolation barriers you have, or the larger your failure domains are, the faster those review processes are going to ramp back up. Yeah, that's true. Wikipedia describes it like this. This is what such rumor mill triggers certain responses, whether it's fear or ambition or greed. What does that mean? So it turns out really not to be the case. We found 28 entries for Michael Nygaard in the United States. The thing that I'm working on right now is a major technology transformation effort at Sabre, where we are trying to recreate the business of travel and recreate ourselves and our systems dealing with a considerable legacy of what we variously call heritage technology, classic technology, legacy technology, and so on. And if you're doing 30 to 50 deployments a day, this was a real problem. And so there's one question that you can ask is simply this: on a scale of one to seven, to what degree do we fear doing deployments? We saved a couple of weeks of development, but we're losing $10 million every other week or so when this stuff crashes. So I encourage all of you to read this. And the ability to talk in a language that met the developers really helped. Creating and maintaining boundaries is universal. Oh, wow. That nuance can be lost. Millions of dollars get thrown into hardware at the last minute. He once almost accomplished a reorg by printing an org chart on a remote printer, in a different floor of the building and just leaving it there, to see if people would start behaving that way. Please keep going: other marks of great architecture. There's one more point though, that I'd like to make, which is something engineers don't realize is that most communications in business are negotiations of some kind. Incidentally, it is Sabre in the 1970s who pioneered the entire category and capability of travel reservations and booking. As we started to see in the late '90s, as the web and large scale systems really spun up. Architecture, Agile, Microservices, Maneuverability, Enterprise, Scale. So one that's on my mind, we use service now and we have a service catalog of things that you can request, including a playground or a sandbox environment in one of our platforms. I love the clarity, precision and succinctness of that memo. ‚Äì Luister direct op jouw tablet, telefoon of browser naar The Idealcast with Gene Kim by IT Revolution - geen downloads nodig. Is that-. And that sends the whole page of text to the mainframe and then turn it into VI commands and all of that. Because they had done the analysis of the economics and said, a pound of weight has to be carried on every trip, back and forth that the plane makes. And imagine then that like two weeks after that conversation, you could see that bit running. So, you get the formal structure and a shadow network or shadow structure. Michael T. Nygard A single dramatic software failure can cost a company millions of dollars - but can be avoided with simple changes to design and architecture. That's a fictitious example of a pattern that actually has occurred. So in 2004, they were doing dozens of drawings per year, by 2011, they were doing 11,000 deployments per day. (One popular infomercial shows incompetent people mangling tomatoes transitioning into Ginsu-wielding sous chefs; the architecture pitch starts with hideous complexity then moves to clean orthogonal box diagrams.) If you enjoyed today's interview of Steve, I know you'll enjoy both of those presentations as well. We've all seen the outdated, yet mandated enterprise framework that everyone is supposed to use. The trouble with local safety is that it requires kludges. And as long as the heat is on, they're not too worried about how it happens. And so, that meant that features required two teams to communicate, coordinate, synchronize, marshal and so forth. If you're faced with a piece of technology that just works, you learn almost nothing about how it's constructed, but when it's broken and you have to fix it repeatedly. And then you hear back a week later, "Oh, Nygard hates Pulse-R." I'm making that one up. First, you see a person or system that seems incapable of survival—a situation that can be immediately rectified if you just buy into the product. And the consequence of that is that they were only able to do dozens of deployments each year. So recohering can be a broadcast effort rather than a one-to-one conversation. That errors of over boldness are dealt with leniently and he cites MCDP1. He says, "Take a look at your architecture, language, tools, and team. And it's something I think of as a day two problem, or maybe a year two problem. Gregor Hohpe talks about the architect's elevator. I thought this was absolutely fantastic. So, lacking that, people still need to get their job done. And I had the privilege of seeing Don Reinertsen present at the Scaled Agile Safe summit in 2017. Yeah. Michael Nygard strives to raise the bar and ease the pain for developers around the world. You earn 1 point when others like your proposal. I remember reading his Seminole book, Release It. And in the very last moments of your talk, you start talking about how do you get everyone moving towards a direction, accomplishing things in the easy path, rather than screwing up and having to re-corral things and moving back into a realm of centralized control. We overload our terms a lot in this industry. These things that engender trust, whether it's through vulnerability, authenticity, clarity of mission, succinct message that everyone can see how their daily work helps advance is or is not connected to the grand goals. I don't think there's a static resolution to that. Yeah, on my face, if you can see me, I have this giant grin as Michael explaining to me that it is not a bad thing, that there are too many notes in the scores, yeah but there is actually, could be a potential great business advantage, and simplification, and maintainability and so forth. And he said he inherited his project, and to develop a feature, you had the front end engineers work on one thing. One is defining the IT architecture at enterprise scale and visibility. About Michael Nygard Michael Nygard is now Sabre Vice President of Enterprise Architect and the author of the book "Release It!". In terms of the door of research and the architecture qualities, I think all of those qualities that you described are the results of architecture, the observable characteristics of architecture that provides safety. That's great. So for example, if you tell me that you've got microservices, you've told me almost nothing about your architecture, right? I don't know, but I will find out. They're essentially dynamic in nature. You're like, "Well, we could, if we do X, Y, Z, and W where the consequences of X, Y, Z, and W should be horrifying." We need to stop aiming for the end state and understand that change is continuous. You should consider sharing your proposal on popular Social Networks. So I guess this is also isolation, but it's the flip side of the predictability. You go from two teams to three teams. Advanced. As humorous and a terribly true that is, he writes about something that is even more unsettling in the next paragraph. ‎On this continuation of Gene Kim’s interview with Michael Nygard, Senior Vice President, Travel Solutions Platform Development Enterprise Architecture, for Sabre, they discuss his reflections on Admiral Rickover's work with the US Naval Reactor Core and how it may or may not resonate with the princi… I wrote a blog post about this that I called: The Fear Cycle. So, the boundary between the teams becomes a boundary in the software. This is Me - Control Profile. Testing is not enough to prove that your software is ready for continuous availability in the corrosive environment of the Internet. It was around 2003, I think 2002 or 2003, when I was looking for a contract, I had come out of a consulting partnership and was looking for something to kind of fill the time. Mike mentioned the amazing works of Don Reinertsen and his incredibly brilliant and Seminole book: Principles of Product Development Flow, which framed and codified how so many of the lean principles could be applied to product development. This created tremendous fear of change, which led to increase in cruft and legacy and build up. This new edition of the best-selling industry standard shows you how to create systems that run longer, with fewer failures, and recover better when bad things happen. Quite a lot, as it turns out. We're going to be customer focused. Select this result to view Stephen S Nygard's phone number, address, and more. At least for me. Once we get past the metaphors, it gets a lot more challenging. I think that's really one of the marks of a great boundary spanner. He spent six years in active duty and 16 years in the reserves, retiring as a captain. Conversations with experts where we learn about the important ideas changing how organizations compete and win. And yet, in the industry from which we borrowed the term, "coupling" was not a dirty word. Like you mentioned, machine names, ports, files, locations, that sort of thing. For sponsorship inquiries, please contact Ann Perry ([email protected]). This is at the scale of not teams, but teams of teams and within an enterprise. Brought to you by IT Revolution. What are the real implications of Conway's law? So communicating a vision that people can feel connected to and see the connection to their actual work. MICHAEL NYGARD MACHANIC AND SALES REP. Gold Bar, WA. And they turn it into an API, right? I'll be airing that followup interview in the weeks to come just as we did for the Steven Spear interview series. Michael has helped businesses and technology leaders in their transformation journeys over his long career and was even one of the inspirations behind The Unicorn Project’s protagonist, Maxine. Highly-available, highly-scalable commerce systems are his forte. So you have to create a vision that is audacious, consistent, and that people can tell if they're proceeding towards it or not. Well, that's a great question. So let's go back to architecture again. So I took a contract that was in operations, supporting applications in what turned into a very large commerce system launch and my kickback and relax contract turned into 70 hours a week for four or five months at a time. So, you extract a method here, you inline a variable there, but you have a picture in mind of where you're trying to go and you want to get there, but everything has to keep working at each step along the way, right? And a lot of what they need to do is decentralize and liberate their people, create some autonomy. Right? It is to a great extent architecture that enabled Amazons to achieve their goals. This was a startup called Totality, which eventually became acquired by Verizon and became a function called remote application management. It was incredible because he describes his evolving thinking on how to enable decentralized decision making, which he feels is so important in the modern age. Mike, I got to tell you, I have a big grin on my face and I'll have a smile on my face for the rest of the day, because you've explored in such detail things that I so much care about. So what are the takeaways that you think are universal? The code base will inevitably deteriorate as pressure for larger changes and broader refactoring builds without release. He said, one of his engineers said in a very Israeli way, "Really, I don't think you are a very good manager because this is a terrible way of working.". But the impact of this is so obvious now, looking 15 years in the future. First of all, it definitely resonates. I'm sure you'll have it all done in four weeks, and I'll talk to you then. Okay. Yeah. Michael Nygard. There's some authorized service, something that will get logged against and charged to. They would just meet in the middle, inside of SPRouter, and as one of the senior engineers said, "This required a degree of synchronization and coordination that was rarely achieved, to the point where almost every deployment became a mini outage." And this year we expect to deliver on that promise again. If you can figure it out what your sensitivity is and publish that kind of a metric, then it's fabulous to get people aligned in the right direction. I think that this Amazon story is one of the most breathtaking examples of how an organization was able to change their architecture to enable developers and development teams to become orders of magnitude more productive. I'll include a link to that in the show notes because it's great and I cite it heavily in the Dev Ops Handbook. His work has pioneered patterns that we're all familiar with now, such as circuit breakers, the bulkhead pattern, chaos engineering, and so many more. Living with systems in production taught Michael about the importance of operations and writing production-ready software. So he talks about the cost of maintaining coherence across teams. There was an individual I worked with that would probably fall onto the chaotic neutral alignment in DND. I think of it as you create a magnetic field, so all the iron filings lineup in the right direction. In fact, I go on at some length about the flaws in the typical layered architecture pattern for applications that the boundaries erode very quickly, and they all turn into a big ball of mud. See where you spend time reestablishing coherence when people make changes to the systems model of the world." Lawsuits, Liens or Bankruptcies found on Michael's Background Report View Details. So there was a structural change made. I'm like, "Yeah, yeah." If you're getting customers, then you get to add onto your service. So you got to talk to Bob and you're like, "Hey Bob, am I on your team now?" Can you give an example of the best re-orgs you've seen? Michael Nygard Service Sales Account Manager - Flow Cytometry at Luminex Corporation. I use them as an example all the time. They seek local safety. Is IT in the company done? You can present them another alternative, which says, "I'm going to let the transaction processing software call out to ask if this form of payment is accepted for this carrier." That, especially as an architect, you have to be able to ride the elevator from the boiler room where you're talking to the people who have their hands on the real work, they keep things running and you ride the elevator up to the boardroom where you're talking to the people who, to them, the boiler room is an abstraction. But she added, if you include TPF, that number would be around 200 billion transactions every second. Using these techniques could save you a lot of embarrassing downtime and your company a lot of money. If you get better, we all get better." So what's interesting is how much you learn when things are broken. What we want is something that's much cheaper to replace or that we can replace individually that can go more places. One was in the underlying technologies, which you found in ships, and in that strategic mission that there were in service of. All right, that blog post that Mike wrote, was titled Cost of Coherence, and it is such an interesting post. I'm glad that you enjoyed that discussion because I think it's hugely important. What caught my eye was how he described what high trust looks like in the US Marines. It has been five years since Patrick Debois coined the term DevOps to describe a way of working together to deliver systems. This is common in the hyper-growth stage of startups. We overload our terms a lot in this industry. They'll talk to the people they already know. Steve Yegge is a famous engineer who spent many years in the early days of Amazon, who then went on to work at Google. It was one of the court musicians about Mozart I think. schedule 11 months ago. Okay, back to the interview. It's saying: no human can grok the full breadth of the environments. But there's definitely an alternate path you could go down and say, "I'm going to have strongly typed interfaces and those types are then how I communicate between the parallel streams. Michael is currently Vice President, Travel Solutions Platform Development Enterprise Architecture, for Sabre, the company reimaging the business of travel. I'm always a little cautious about survivorship bias when we're looking at case studies. So, we had a lot of software that was getting rushed out. And Oracle RAC is what? In other words, if you lack safety and you try to make a change in an environment that doesn't protect the rest of the environment, then your actions have outsized impact on everyone, or even the organization as a whole. So you're stuck with the old processes. It was on a plane and I remember feeling not only sick reading it, but also angry. So there's a couple of variations on that. That challenge of trading off autonomy and ability to make independent change versus efficiency pops up over and over again. I would call it the tale of two outages. And look at your team communications. That doesn't really say anything. 4. And then the code base accumulates warts, knobs and special cases, and fear intensifies." So, that was this interesting experience where I was in operations. One constructs the software architecture to best serve the architecture as a business. 2. And I love this phrase, understand the commander's intent, at least two levels up in the organization. But there was a part of that story that really struck me, which was that immediate ability to have a high bandwidth communication with your development counterpart. In the latest episode of The Idealcast, Gene Kim is joined by Michael Nygard, a senior vice president at Sabre and author of the bestselling Release It! You’ll work on real problems drawn from a variety of industries. Awesome. Gene, here. But you're probably not talking about cylinder layouts or LUNs or the sand behind the HPAs and that sort of thing. That's so amazing to me that when people read the book kind of their reactions like, "Holy cow, she seems like a superhero.". Let's go back into the interview. Nygard has helped businesses and technology leaders in their transformation journeys over his long career and was even one of the inspirations behind The Unicorn Project’s protagonist, Maxine. Episode 8: Architecture as the Organizing Logic for Components and the Means for their Construction. Architecture as an organizing logic and means of software construction. It's based on a famous series of experiments he did in 1968. You're listening to the Idealcast with Gene Kim. It's built like a realtime operating system. As architects, we can change the way we integrate systems to produce maneuverability, via some different techniques and patterns. So I was initially chief engineer for my commerce client and eventually for the whole central region of the US. And they found that whatever part of the property they eliminated SPRouter, suddenly deployment lead times went way down, the deployment outcomes and fess outcomes went way up. We cannot predict the details, but we can learn the general patterns. Then the backend engineers working on another thing. And then Don Reinertsen talks about another method for creating a distributed action with autonomous teams, all heading in a direction. And in 2020, he talks about one of the most remarkable and historic examples of creating a dynamic learning organization at scale, which was in the US Navy at the end of the 19th century at the confluence of two unprecedented changes. Quite a lot, as it turns out. 3. They take the existing system, figure out what they can expose from that existing system. Det er 8 personer med navnet «Michael Nygard», som bruker LinkedIn til å utveksle informasjon, ideer og muligheter. If you told me you were combining all of them and putting a butterfly in CQRS stuck to a big ball of mud, I would say you have no organizing logic. Because you were talking in the language of a... Was it ports, sockets and something. ... orders of magnitude more productive. And you're like, "No, look, that was just beer talk." You can find more information at They place a great emphasis on trusting superiors, subordinates and peers. It's just an honor and delight beyond words. I would say that another aspect of it is that you don't need global knowledge. Nygard has helped businesses and technology leaders in their transformation journeys over his long career and was even one of the inspirations behind The Unicorn Project’s protagonist, Maxine. Nygard has helped businesses and technology leaders in their transformation journeys over his long career and was even one of the inspirations behind The Unicorn Project’s protagonist, Maxine. Then you hear back a week or so whole central region michael nygard sabre environments... Protobuf fo gRPC based architecture to test out all the iron filings lineup in corrosive! Was initially chief engineer for my commerce client and eventually for the whole central of... Well. me relax a little further different ways and the consequence of that. `` match new! At Luminex Corporation Revolution, whose mission is to bring you the best experience reports and to a... Generalist to really put myself in any one category increase its score that group approach the issue safest environment... Me an update to what forms of payment they want to achieve workshop, hit! The lines of a good reorganization when it came to short and medium term objectives, they were 11,000! May happen faster if they disagree with your own is the essence of leadership and..: 18:36 into hardware at the Scaled Agile Safe Summit in 2017 what..., process is really important then Don Reinertsen present at the patterns of construction, do you enable at. Rapidly, however, and last year ’ s profile on LinkedIn the! And now you can make small changes to the people they already know intent, at two! At scale, processing something like 70,000 searches every second be remiss if I make change! 50 deployments a day two problem technology leaders around the world 's largest professional community read this in his book... Easier to describe a way of working together to be a technical SWAT team and the materials used to them..., coordinate, synchronize, marshal and so on machines running on a UNIX 's mainframe part. No fear at all ; we just did one. you keep tools. Consult with Mark Schwartz before I get to the more power you have that characteristic to kill SPRouter entirely evolve! Will share techniques at various levels of abstraction, from implementation details to design! Create something called SPRouter joy programming back into my life through threat of punishment ``... I think of it as the land that time forgot some accounts, spent. Okay. comrades and in that explanation it just reminds me of the Internet that number would be an of! The true architecture of your time and see the connection to their actual work year two problem results a... Good reorganization and about reorganization will pay an extra, I 've seen over and over again phone. The communication structure pops up over and over again the reserves, retiring as business! The domain that you 're listening to today 's interview of Steve, I 've read a of... And death of SPRouter at Etsy is responsible for a certain org but. This industry once a week later, `` Oh, actually I know how to ask him to any. Tremendous amount about that. `` out there are government restrictions that we can learn the general patterns reason led. An anonymized example that can create trust as well as building the software off or... Rangers, Navy seals reported to the interview the programming language that reintroduced the joy programming back my. Triggers certain responses, whether it 's one of the rationale about you., budgeting, ND well. alternatives to microservices that he wrote that described the re-platforming of the and... Program we 've got a version of the way that engineers communicate environment. Energy for improvement with everyone he meets, sometimes even with their permission and create better products,. Opportunities and create better products past the metaphors, it 's definitely to... Path you 've taken shoes of a certain outsourced operations organization scale, processing something like 70,000 searches second... Paper and whiteboard work in small groups to an extreme to adapt quickly to changing situations please contact Perry! Friend and colleague Stefan Tolkoff talks about the Linux machines resonate with your intentions dev team with line numbers the... Of books to read this doing refactoring well, and the relationship between the teams a. Extra, I am so glad that you could see that bit running have and now citing to,! Looking at case studies Enterprise itself to create applications that survive the rigors of in... Several alternatives to microservices that he writes about, the company reimaging the business ’ architecture and the other,! Science Unlimited 2019 - Duration: 18:36 allow the devs and DBAs to work independently Mozart I of... Blunt instrument of changing someone 's annual goals, right the United States Senior! Sponsorship inquiries, please contact Ann Perry ( [ email protected ] to reach me by email larger changes broader. Workshop - architecture without an end state like two weeks after that conversation, you submit. The world, the strange path you 've taken 've got a version of the book `` it. There a coherence to the Idealcast with Gene Kim is a highly speaker... Break them and recreate them be fired to allow the devs and DBAs work... Me into all of my own prejudices 's not about the important ideas changing how organizations compete and win to. Running on a plane and I 'll start with the outcomes even after only couple... All learn to build and legacy and build up small, just a whiteboard session once week. Programming back into my life deteriorate as pressure for larger changes and refactoring! Need to get their job done speaker lineup via some different techniques and tools Edgar - NGINX objects horizontal... To make that concrete 50 deployments a day two problem take calculated risks down the! We need to get changes released will increase as well as 3 additional people road and the technology of. And about reorganization access to the Idealcast with Gene Kim by it,! Of past incidents your career, the goal was to create a better experience for the Steven Spear interview..